Showing posts with label Caldwell.Erskine. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Caldwell.Erskine. Show all posts

Tuesday, March 13, 2007

Kneel to the Rising Sun by Erskine Caldwell

A shiver went through Lonnie. He drew his hand away from his sharp chin, remembering what Clem had said. It made him feel now as if he were committing a crime by standing in Arch Gunnard's presence and allowing his face to be seen.

He and Clem had been walking up the road together that afternoon on their way to the filling station when he told Clem how much he needed rations. Clem stopped a moment to kick a rock out of the road, and said that if you worked for Arch Gunnard long enough, your face would be sharp enough to split the boards for your own coffin.

As Lonnie turned away to sit down on an empty box beside the gasoline pump, he could not help wishing that he could be as unafraid of Arch Gunnard as Clem was. Even if Clem was a Negro, he never hesitated to ask for rations when he needed something to eat; and when he and his family did not get enough, Clem came right out and told Arch so. Arch stood for that, but he swore that he was going to run Clem out of the country the first chance he got.

Lonnie knew without turning around that Clem was standing at the corner of the filling station with two or three other Negroes and looking at him, but for some reason he was unable to meet Clem's eyes.

Arch Gunnard was sitting in the sun, honing his jack-knife blade on his boot top. He glanced once or twice at Lonnie's hound, Nancy, who was lying in the middle of the road waiting for Lonnie to go home.

"That your dog, Lonnie?"

Jumping with fear, Lonnie's hand went to his chin to hide the lean face that would accuse Arch of shortrationing.

Arch snapped his fingers and the hound stood up, wagging her tail. She waited to be called.

"Mr. Arch, I--"

Arch called the dog. She began crawling towards them on her belly, wagging her tail a little faster each time Arch's fingers snapped. When she was several feet away, she turned over on her back and lay on the ground with her four paws in the air.

Dudley Smith and Jim Weaver, who were lounging around the filling station, laughed. They had been leaning against the side of the building, but they straightened up to see what Arch was up to.

Arch spat some more tobacco juice on his boot top and whetted the jack-knife blade some more.

"What kind of a hound dog is that, anyway, Lonnie?" Arch said. "Looks like to me it might be a ketch hound."

Lonnie could feel Clem Henry's eyes boring into the back of his head. He wondered what Clem would do if it had been his dog Arch Gunnard was snapping his fingers at and calling like that.

"His tail's way too long for a coon hound or a bird dog, ain't it, Arch?" somebody behind Lonnie said, laughing out loud.

Everybody laughed then, including Arch. They looked at Lonnie, waiting to hear what he was going to say to Arch.

"Is he a ketch hound, Lonnie?" Arch said, snapping his finger again.

"Mr. Arch, I--"

"Don't be ashamed of him, Lonnie, if he don't show signs of turning out to be a bird dog or a fox hound. Everybody needs a hound around the house that can go out and catch pigs and rabbits when you are in a hurry for them. A ketch hound is a mighty respectable animal. I've known the time when I was mighty proud to own one."

Everybody laughed.

Arch Gunnard was getting ready to grab Nancy by the tail. Lonnie sat up, twisting his neck until he caught a glimpse of Clem Henry at the other corner of the filling station. Clem was staring at him with unmistakable meaning, with the same look in his eyes he had had that afternoon when he said that nobody who worked for Arch Gunnard ought to stand for short-rationing. Lonnie lowered his eyes. He could not figure out how a Negro could be braver than he was. There were a lot of times like that when he would have given anything he had to be able to jump into Clem's shoes and change places with him.

"The trouble with this hound of yours, Lonnie, is that he's too heavy on his feet. Don't you reckon it would be a pretty slick little trick to lighten the load some, being as how he's a ketch hound to begin with?"

Lonnie remembered then what Clem Henry had said he would do if Arch Gunnard ever tried to cut off his dog's tail. Lonnie knew, and Clem knew, and everybody else knew, that that would give Arch the chance he was waiting for. All Arch asked, he had said, was for Clem Henry to overstep his place just one little half-inch, or to talk back to him with just one little short word, and he would do the rest. Everybody knew what Arch meant by that, especially if Clem did not turn and run. And Clem had not been known to run from anybody, after fifteen years in the country.

Arch reached down and grabbed Nancy's tail while Lonnie was wondering about Clem. Nancy acted as if she thought Arch were playing some kind of a game with her. She turned her head around until she could reach Arch's hand to lick it. He cracked her on the bridge of the nose with the end of the jackknife.

"He's a mighty playful dog, Lonnie," Arch said, catching up a shorter grip on the tail, "but his wagpole is way too long for a dog his size, especially when he wants to be a ketch hound."

Lonnie swallowed hard.

" Mr. Arch, she's a mighty fine rabbit tracker. I--"

"Shucks, Lonnie," Arch said, whetting the knife blade on the dog's tail, "I aint never seen a hound in all my life that needed a tail that long to hunt rabbits with. It's way too long for just a common, ordinary, everyday ketch hound."

Lonnie looked up hopefully at Dudley Smith and the others. None of them offered any help. It was useless for him to try to stop Arch, because Arch Gunnard would let nothing stand in his way when once he had set his head on what he wished to do. Lonnie knew that if he should let himself show any anger or resentment, Arch would drive him off the farm before sundown that night. Clem Henry was the only person there who would help him, but Clem . . .

The white men and the Negroes at both corners of the filling station waited to see what Lonnie was going to do about it. All of them hoped he would put up a fight for his hound. If anyone ever had the nerve to stop Arch Gunnard from cutting off a dog's tail, it might put an end to it. It was plain, though, that Lonnie, who was one of Arch's share-croppers, was afraid to speak up. Clem Henry might; Clem was the only one who might try to stop Arch, even if it meant trouble. And all of them knew that Arch would insist on running Clem out of the country, or filling him full of lead.

"I reckon it's all right with you, aint it, Lonnie?" Arch said. "I don't seem to hear no objections."

Clem Henry stepped forward several paces, and stopped.

Arch laughed, watching Lonnie's face, and jerked Nancy to her feet. The hound cried out in pain and surprise, but Arch made her be quiet by kicking her in the belly.

Lonnie winced. He could hardly bear to see anybody kick his dog like that.

"Mr. Arch, I . . ."

A contraction in his throat almost choked him for several moments, and he had to open his mouth wide and fight for breath. The other white men around him were silent. Nobody liked to see a dog kicked in the belly like that.

Lonnie could see the other end of the filling station from the corner of his eye. He saw a couple of Negroes go up behind Clem and grasp his overalls. Clem spat on the ground, between outspread feet, but he did not try to break away from them.

"Being as how I don't hear no objections, I reckon it's all right to go ahead and cut it off," Arch said, spitting.

Lonnie's head went forward and all he could see of Nancy was her hind feet. He had come to ask for a slab of sowbelly and some molasses, or something. Now he did not know if he could ever bring himself to ask for rations, no matter how much hungrier they became at home.

"I always make it a habit of asking a man first," Arch said. "I wouldn't want to go ahead and cut off a tail if a man had any objections. That wouldn't be right. No, sir, it just wouldn't be fair and square."

Arch caught a shorter grip on the hound's tail and placed the knife blade on it two or three inches from the rump. It looked to those who were watching as if his mouth were watering, because tobacco juice began to trickle down the corners of his lips. He brought up the back of his hand and wiped his mouth.

A noisy automobile came plowing down the road through the deep red dust. Everyone looked up as it passed in order to see who was in it.

Lonnie glanced at it, but he could not keep his eyes raised. His head fell downward once more until he could feel his sharp chin cutting into his chest. He wondered then if Arch had noticed how lean his face was.

"I keep two or three ketch hounds around my place," Arch said, honing the blade on the tail of the dog as if it were a razor strop until his actions brought smiles to the faces of the men grouped around him, "but I never could see the sense of a ketch hound having a long tail. It only gets in their way when I send them out to catch a pig or a rabbit for my supper."

Pulling with his left hand and pushing with his right, Arch Gunnard docked the hound's tail as quickly and as easily as if he were cutting a willow switch in the pasture to drive the cows home with. The dog sprang forward with the release of her tail until she was far beyond Arch's reach, and began howling so loud she could be heard half a mile away. Nancy stopped once and looked back at Arch, and then she sprang to the middle of the road and began leaping and twisting in circles. All that time she was yelping and biting at the bleeding stub of her tail.

Arch leaned backward and twirled the severed tail in one hand while he wiped the jack-knife blade on his boot sole. He watched Lonnie's dog chasing herself around in circles in the red dust.

Nobody had anything to say then. Lonnie tried not to watch his dog's agony, and he forced himself to keep from looking at Clem Henry. Then, with his eyes shut, he wondered why he had remained on Arch Gunnard's plantation all those past years, sharecropping for a mere living on short-rations, and becoming leaner and leaner all the time. He knew then how true it was what Clem had said about Arch's sharecroppers' faces becoming sharp enough to hew their own coffins. His hands went to his chin before he knew what he was doing. His hand dropped when he had felt the bones of jaw and the exposed tendons of his cheeks.

As hungry as he was, he knew that even if Arch did give him some rations then, there would not be nearly enough for them to eat for the following week. Hatty, his wife, was already broken down from hunger and work in the fields, and his father, Mark Newsome, stone-deaf for the past twenty years, was always asking him why there was never enough food in the house for them to have a solid meal. Lonnie's head fell forward a little more, and he could feel his eyes becoming damp.

The pressure of his sharp chin against his chest made him so uncomfortable that he had to raise his head at last in order to ease the pain of it.

The first thing he saw when he looked up was Arch Gunnard twirling Nancy's tail in his left hand. Arch Gunnard had a trunk full of dogs' tails at home. He had been cutting off tails ever since anyone could remember, and during all those years he had accumulated a collection of which he was so proud that he kept the trunk locked and the key tied around his neck on a string. On Sunday afternoons when the preacher came to visit, or when a crowd was there to loll on the front porch and swap stories, Arch showed them off, naming each tail from memory just as well as if he had had a tag on it.

Clem Henry had left the filling station and was walking alone down the road towards the plantation. Clem Henry's house was in a cluster of Negro cabins below Arch's big house, and he had to pass Lonnie's house to get there. Lonnie was on the verge of getting up and leaving when he saw Arch looking at him. He did not know whether Arch was looking at his lean face, or whether he was watching to see if he were going to get up and go down the road with Clem.

The thought of leaving reminded him of his reason for being there. He had to have some rations before suppertime that night, no matter how short they were.

"Mr. Arch, I . . ."

Arch stared at him for a moment, appearing as if he had turned to listen to some strange sound unheard of before that moment.

Lonnie bit his lips, wondering if Arch was going to say anything about how lean and hungry he looked. But Arch was thinking about something else. He slapped his hand on his leg and laughed out loud.

"I sometimes wish niggers had tails," Arch said, coiling Nancy's tail into a ball and putting it into his pocket. "I'd a heap rather cut off nigger tails than dog tails. There'd be more to cut, for one thing."

Dudley Smith and somebody else behind them laughed for a brief moment. The laughter died out almost as suddenly as it had risen.

The Negroes who had heard Arch shuffled their feet in the dust and moved backwards. It was only a few minutes until not one was left at the filling station. They went up the road behind the red wooden building until they were out of sight.

Arch got up and stretched. The sun was getting low, and it was no longer comfortable in the October air. "Well, I reckon I'll be getting on home to get me some supper," he said.

He walked slowly to the middle of the road and stopped to look at Nancy retreating along the ditch.

"Nobody going my way?" he asked. "What's wrong with you, Lonnie? Going home to supper, aint you?"

"Mr. Arch, I . . ."

Lonnie found himself jumping to his feet. His first thought was to ask for the sowbelly and molasses, and maybe some corn meal; but when he opened his mouth, the words refused to come out. He took several steps forward and shook his head. He did not know what Arch might say or do if he said "no."

"Hatty'll be looking for you," Arch said, turning his back and walking off.

He reached into his hip pocket and took out Nancy's tail. He began twirling it as he walked down the road towards the big house in the distance.

Dudley Smith went inside the filling station, and the others walked away.

After Arch had gone several hundred yards, Lonnie sat down heavily on the box beside the gas pump from which he had got up when Arch spoke to him. He sat down heavily, his shoulders drooping, his arms falling between his outspread legs.

Lonnie did not know how long his eyes had been closed, but when he opened them, he saw Nancy lying between his feet, licking the docked tail. While he watched her, he felt the sharp point of his chin cutting into his chest again. Presently the door behind him was slammed shut, and a minute later he could hear Dudley Smith walking away from the filling station on his way home.


II

Lonnie had been sleeping fitfully for several hours when he suddenly found himself wide awake. Hatty shook him again. He raised himself on his elbow and tried to see into the darkness of the room. Without knowing what time it was, he was able to determine that it was still nearly two hours until sunrise.

"Lonnie," Hatty said again, trembling in the cold night air, "Lonnie, your pa aint in the house."

Lonnie sat upright in bed.

"How do you know he aint?" he said.

"I've been lying here wide awake ever since I got in bed, and I heard him when he went out. He's been gone all that time."

"Maybe he just stepped out for a while," Lonnie said, turning and trying to see through the bedroom window.

"I know what I'm saying, Lonnie," Hatty insisted. "Your pa's been gone a heap too long."

Both of them sat without a sound for several minutes while they listened for Mark Newsome.

Lonnie got up and lit a lamp. He shivered while he was putting on his shirt, overalls, and shoes. He tied his shoelaces in hard knots because he couldn't see in the faint light. Outside the window it was almost pitch-dark, and Lonnie could feel the damp October air blowing against his face.

"I'll go help look," Hatty said, throwing the covers off and starting to get up.

Lonnie went to the bed and drew the covers back over her and pushed her back into place.

"You try to get some sleep, Hatty," he said; "you can't stay awake the whole night. I'll go bring Pa back."

He left Hatty, blowing out the lamp, and stumbled through the dark hall, feeling his way to the front porch by touching the wall with his hands. When he got to the porch, he could still barely see any distance ahead, but his eyes were becoming more accustomed to the darkness. He waited a minute, listening.

Feeling his way down the steps into the yard, he walked around the corner of the house and stopped to listen again before calling his father.

"Oh, Pa!" he said loudly. "Oh, Pa!"

He stopped under the bedroom window when he realized what he had been doing.

"Now that's a fool thing for me to be out here doing," he said, scolding himself. "Pa couldn't hear it thunder."

He heard a rustling of the bed.

"He's been gone long enough to get clear to the crossroads, or more," Hatty said, calling through the window.

"Now you lay down and try to get a little sleep, Hatty," Lonnie told her. "I'll bring him back in no time."

He could hear Nancy scratching fleas under the house, but he knew she was in no condition to help look for Mark. It would be several days before she recovered from the shock of losing her tail.

"He's been gone a long time," Hatty said, unable to keep still.

"That don't make no difference," Lonnie said. "I'll find him sooner or later. Now you go on to sleep like I told you, Hatty."

Lonnie walked towards the barn, listening for some sound. Over at the big house he could hear the hogs grunting and squealing, and he wished they would be quiet so he could hear other sounds. Arch Gunnard's dogs were howling occasionally, but they were not making any more noise than they usually did at night, and he was accustomed to their howling.

Lonnie went to the barn, looking inside and out. After walking around the barn, he went into the field as far as the cotton shed. He knew it was useless, but he could not keep from calling his father time after time.

"Oh, Pa!" he said, trying to penetrate the darkness. He went further into the field.

"Now, what in the world could have become of Pa?" he said, stopping and wondering where to look next.

After he had gone back to the front yard, he began to feel uneasy for the first time. Mark had not acted any more strangely during the past week than he ordinarily did, but Lonnie knew he was upset over the way Arch Gunnard was giving out short-rations. Mark had even said that, at the rate they were being fed, all of them would starve to death inside another three months.

Lonnie left the yard and went down the road towards the Negro cabins. When he got to Clem's house, he turned in and walked up the path to the door. He knocked several times and waited. There was no answer, and he rapped louder.

"Who's that?" he heard Clem say from bed.

"It's me," Lonnie said. "I've got to see you a minute, Clem. I'm out in the front yard."

He sat down and waited for Clem to dress and come outside. While he waited, he strained his ears to catch any sound that might be in the air. Over the fields towards the big house he could hear the fattening hogs grunt and squeal.

Clem came out and shut the door. He stood on the doorsill a moment speaking to his wife in bed, telling her he would be back and not to worry.

"Who's that?" Clem said, coming down into the yard.

Lonnie got up and met Clem half-way.

"What's the trouble?" Clem asked then, buttoning up his overall jumper.

"Pa's not in his bed," Lonnie said, "and Hatty says he's been gone from the house most all night. I went out in the field, and all around the barn, but I couldn't find a trace of him anywhere."

Clem then finished buttoning his jumper and began rolling a cigarette. He walked slowly down the path to the road. It was still dark, and it would be at least an hour before dawn made it any lighter.

"Maybe he was too hungry to stay in the bed any longer," Clem said. "When I saw him yesterday, he said he was so shrunk up and weak he didn't know if he could last much longer. He looked like his skin and bones couldn't shrivel much more."

"I asked Arch last night after suppertime for some rations - just a little piece of sowbelly and some molasses. He said he'd get around to letting me have some the first thing this morning."

"Why don't you tell him to give you full rations or none?" Clem said. "If you knew you wasn't going to get none at all, you could move away and find a better man to share-crop for, couldn't you?"

"I've been loyal to Arch Gunnard for a long time now," Lonnie said. "I'd hate to haul off and leave him like that."

Clem looked at Lonnie, but he did not say anything more just then. They turned up the road towards the driveway that led up to the big house. The fattening hogs were still grunting and squealing in the pen, and one of Arch's hounds came down a cotton row beside the driveway to smell their shoes.

"Them fattening hogs always get enough to eat," Clem said. "There's not a one of them that don't weigh seven hundred pounds right now, and they're getting bigger every day. Besides taking all that's thrown to them, they make a lot of meals off the chickens that get in there to peck around."

Lonnie listened to the grunting of the hogs as they walked up the driveway towards the big house.

"Reckon we'd better get Arch up to help look for Pa?" Lonnie said. "I'd hate to wake him up, but I'm scared Pa might stray off into the swamp and get lost for good. He couldn't hear it thunder, even. I never could find him back there in all that tangle if he got into it."

Clem said something under his breath and went on towards the barn and hog pen. He reached the pen before Lonnie got there.

"You'd better come here quick," Clem said, turning around to see where Lonnie was.

Lonnie ran to the hog pen. He stopped and climbed half-way up the wooden-and-wire sides of the fence. At first he could see nothing, but gradually he was able to see the moving mass of black fattening hogs on the other side of the pen. They were biting and snarling at each other like a pack of hungry hounds turned loose on a dead rabbit.

Lonnie scrambled to the top of the fence, but Clem caught him and pulled him back.

"Don't go in that hog pen that way," he said. "Them hogs will tear you to pieces, they're that wild. They're fighting over something."

Both of them ran around the corner of the pen and got to the side where the hogs were. Down under their feet on the ground Lonnie caught a glimpse of a dark mass splotched with white. He was able to see it for a moment only, because one of the hogs trampled over it.

Clem opened and closed his mouth several times before he was able to say anything at all. He clutched at Lonnie's arm, shaking him.

"That looks like it might be your pa," he said. "I swear before goodness, Lonnie, it does look like it."

Lonnie still could not believe it. He climbed to the top of the fence and began kicking his feet at the hogs, trying to drive them away. They paid no attention to him.

While Lonnie was perched there, Clem had gone to the wagon shed, and he ran back with two singletrees he had somehow managed to find there in the dark. He handed one to Lonnie, poking it at him until Lonnie's attention was drawn from the hogs long enough to take it.

Clem leaped over the fence and began swinging the singletree at the hogs. Lonnie slid down beside him, yelling at them. One hog turned on Lonnie and snapped at him, and Clem struck it over the back of the neck with enough force to drive it off momentarily.

By then Lonnie was able to realize what had happened. He ran to the mass of hogs, kicking them with his heavy stiff shoes and striking them on their heads with the iron-tipped singletree. Once he felt a stinging sensation, and looked down to see one of the hogs biting the calf of his leg. He had just enough time to hit the hog and drive it way before his leg was torn. He knew most of his overall leg had been ripped away, because he could feel the night air on his bare wet calf.

Clem had gone ahead and had driven the hogs back. There was no other way to do anything. They were in a snarling circle around them, and both of them had to keep the singletrees swinging back and forth all the time to keep the hogs off. Finally Lonnie reached down and got a grip on Mark's leg. With Clem helping, Lonnie carried his father to the fence and lifted him over to the other side.

They were too much out of breath for a while to say anything, or to do anything else. The snarling, fattening hogs were at the fence, biting the wood and wire, and making more noise than ever.

While Lonnie was searching in his pockets for a match, Clem struck one. He held the flame close to Mark Newsome's head.

They both stared unbelievingly, and then Clem blew out the match. There was nothing said as they stared at each other in the darkness.

Clem walked several steps away, and turned and came back beside Lonnie.

"It's him, though," Clem said, sitting down on the ground. "It's him, all right."

"I reckon so," Lonnie said. He could think of nothing else to say then.

They sat on the ground, one on each side of Mark, looking at the body. There had been no sign of life in the body beside them since they had first touched it. The face, throat, and stomach had been completely devoured.

"You'd better go wake up Arch Gunnard," Clem said after a while.

"What for?" Lonnie said. "He can't help none now. It's too late for help."

"Makes no difference," Clem insisted. "You'd better go wake him up and let him see what there is to see. If you wait till morning, he might take it into his head to say the hogs didn't do it. Right now is the time to get him up so he can see what his hogs did."

Clem turned around and looked at the big house. The dark outline against the dark sky made him hesitate.

"A man who short-rations tenants ought to have to sit and look at that till it's buried."

Lonnie looked at Clem fearfully. He knew Clem was right, but he was scared to hear a Negro say anything like that about a white man.

"You oughtn't talk like that about Arch," Lonnie said. "He's in bed asleep. He didn't have a thing to do with it. He didn't have no more to do with it than I did."

Clem laughed a little, and threw the singletree on the ground between his feet. After letting it lie there a little while, he picked it up and began beating the ground with it.

Lonnie got to his feet slowly. He had never seen Clem act like that before, and he did not know what to think about it. He left without saying anything and walked stiffly to the house in the darkness to wake up Arch Gunnard.


III

Arch was hard to wake up. And even after he was awake, he was in no hurry to get up. Lonnie was standing outside the bedroom window, and Arch was lying in bed six or eight feet away. Lonnie could hear him toss and grumble.

"Who told you to come and wake me up in the middle of the night?" Arch said.

"Well, Clem Henry's out here, and he said maybe you'd like to know about it."

Arch tossed around on the bed, flailing the pillow with his fists.

"You tell Clem Henry I said that one of these days he's going to find himself turned inside out, like a coat-sleeve."

Lonnie waited doggedly. He knew Clem was right in insisting that Arch ought to wake up and come out there to see what had happened. Lonnie was afraid to go back to the barnyard and tell Clem that Arch was not coming. He did not know, but he had a feeling that Clem might go into the bedroom and drag Arch out of bed. He did not like to think of anything like that taking place.

"Are you still out there, Lonnie?" Arch shouted.

"I'm right here, Mr. Arch. I--"

"If I wasn't so sleepy, I'd come out there and take a stick and - I don't know what I wouldn't do!"

Lonnie met Arch at the back step. On the way out to the hog pen Arch did not speak to him. Arch walked heavily ahead, not even waiting to see if Lonnie was coming. The lantern that Arch was carrying cast long flat beams of yellow light over the ground; and when they got to where Clem was waiting beside Mark's body, the Negro's face shone in the night like a highly polished plowshare.

"What was Mark doing in my hog pen at night, anyway?" Arch said, shouting at them both.

Neither Clem nor Lonnie replied. Arch glared at them for not answering. But no matter how many times he looked at them, his eyes returned each time to stare at the torn body of Mark Newsome on the ground at his feet.

"There's nothing to be done now," Arch said finally. "We'll just have to wait till daylight and send for the undertaker." He walked a few steps away. "Looks like you could have waited till morning in the first place. There wasn't no sense in getting me up.

He turned his back and looked sideways at Clem. Clem stood up and looked him straight in the eyes.

"What do you want, Clem Henry?" he said. "Who told you to be coming around my house in the middle of the night? I don't want niggers coming here except when I send for them."

"I couldn't stand to see anybody eaten up by the hogs, and not do anything about it," Clem said.

"You mind your own business," Arch told him. "And when you talk to me, take off your hat, or you'll be sorry for it. It wouldn't take much to make me do you up the way you belong."

Lonnie backed away. There was a feeling of uneasiness around them. That was how trouble between Clem and Arch always began. He had seen it start that way dozens of times before. As long as Clem turned and went away, nothing happened, but sometimes he stayed right where he was and talked up to Arch just as if he had been a white man, too.

Lonnie hoped it would not happen this time. Arch was already mad enough about being waked up in the middle of the night, and Lonnie knew there was no limit to what Arch would do when he got good and mad at a Negro. Nobody had ever seen him kill a Negro, but he had said he had, and he told people that he was not scared to do it again.

"I reckon you know how he came to get eaten up by the hogs like that," Clem said, looking straight at Arch.

Arch whirled around.

"Are you talking to me . . .?"

"I asked you that," Clem stated.

"God damn you, yellow-blooded . . ." Arch yelled.

He swung the lantern at Clem's head. Clem dodged, but the bottom of it hit his shoulder, and it was smashed to pieces. The oil splattered on the ground, igniting in the air from the flaming wick. Clem was lucky not to have it splash on his face and overalls.

"Now, look here . . ." Clem said.

"You yellow-blooded nigger," Arch said, rushing at him. "I'll teach you to talk back to me. You've got too big for your place for the last time. I've been taking too much from you, but I aint doing it no more."

"Mr. Arch, I . . ." Lonnie said, stepping forward partly between them. No one heard him.

Arch stood back and watched the kerosene flicker out on the ground.

"You know good and well why he got eaten up by the fattening hogs," Clem said, standing his ground. "He was so hungry he had to get up out of bed in the middle of the night and come up here in the dark trying to find something to eat. Maybe he was trying to find the smokehouse. It makes no difference, either way. He's been on short-rations like everybody else working on your place, and he was so old he didn't know where else to look for food except in your smokehouse. You know good and well that's how he got lost u' here in the dark and fell in the hog pen."

The kerosene had died out completely. In the last faint flare, Arch had reached down and grabbed up the singletree that had been lying on the ground where Lonnie had dropped it.

Arch raised the singletree over his head and struck with all his might at Clem. Clem dodged, but Arch drew back again quickly and landed a blow on his arm just above the elbow before Clem could dodge it. Clem's arm dropped to his side, dangling lifelessly.

"You Goddamn yellow-blooded nigger!" Arch shouted. "Now's your time, you black bastard. I've been waiting for the chance to teach you your lesson. And this's going to be one you won't never forget."

Clem felt the ground with his feet until he had located the other singletree. He stooped down and got it. Raising it, he did not try to hit Arch, but held it in front of him so he could ward off Arch's blows at his head. He continued to stand his ground, not giving Arch an inch.

"Drop that singletree," Arch said.

"I won't stand here and let you beat me like that," Clem protested.

"By God, that's all I want to hear," Arch said, his mouth curling. "Nigger, your time has come, by God!"

He swung once more at Clem, but Clem turned and ran towards the barn. Arch went after him a few steps and stopped. He threw aside the singletree and turned and ran back to the house.

Lonnie went to the fence and tried to think what was best for him to do. He knew he could not take sides with a Negro, in the open, even if Clem had helped him, and especially after Clem had talked to Arch in the way he wished he could himself. He was a white man, and to save his life he could not stand to think of turning against Arch, no matter what happened.

Presently a light burst through one of the windows of the house, and he heard Arch shouting at his wife to take her up.

When he saw Arch's wife go to the telephone, Lonnie realized what was going to happen. She was calling up the neighbors and Arch's friends. They would not mind getting up in the night when they found out what was going to take place.

Out behind the barn he could hear Clem calling him. Leaving the yard, Lonnie felt his way out there in the dark.

"What's the trouble, Clem?" he said.

"I reckon my time has come," Clem said. "Arch Gunnard talks that way when he's good and mad. He talked just like he did that time he carried Jim Moffin off to the swamp - and Jim never came back."

"Arch wouldn't do anything like that to you, Clem," Lonnie said excitedly, but he knew better.

Clem said nothing.

"Maybe you'd better strike out for the swamps till he changes his mind and cools off some," Lonnie said. "You might be right, Clem."

Lonnie could feel Clem's eyes burning into him.

"Wouldn't be no sense in that, if you'd help me," Clem said. "Wouldn't you stand by me?"

Lonnie trembled as the meaning of Clem's suggestion became clear to him. His back was to the side of the barn, and he leaned against it while sheets of black and white passed before his eyes.

"Wouldn't you stand by me?" Clem asked again.

"I don't know what Arch would say to that," Lonnie told him haltingly.

Clem walked away several paces. He stood with his back to Lonnie while he looked across the field towards the quarter where his home was.

"I could go in that little patch of woods out there and stay still they get tired of looking for me," Clem said, turning around to see Lonnie.

"You'd better go somewhere," Lonnie said uneasily. "I know Arch Gunnard. He's hard to handle when he makes up his mind to do something he wants to do. I couldn't stop him an inch. Maybe you'd better get clear out of the country, Clem."

"I couldn't do that, and leave my family down there across the field," Clem said.

"He's going to get you if you don't."

"If you'd only sort of help me out a little, he wouldn't. I would only have to go and hide out in that little patch of woods over there a while. Looks like you could do that for me, being as how I helped you find your pa when he was in the hog pen."

Lonnie nodded, listening for sounds from the big house. He continued to nod at Clem while Clem was waiting to be assured.

"If you're going to stand up for me," Clem said, "I can just go over there in the woods and wait till they get it off their minds. You won't be telling them where I'm at, and you could say I struck out for the swamp. They wouldn't ever find me without bloodhounds."

"That's right," Lonnie said, listening for sounds of Arch's coming out of the house. He did not wish to be found back there behind the barn where Arch could accuse him of talking to Clem.

The moment Lonnie replied, Clem turned and ran off into the night. Lonnie went after him a few steps, as if he had suddenly changed his mind about helping him, but Clem was lost in the darkness by then.

Lonnie waited for a few minutes, listening to Clem crashing through the underbrush in the patch of woods a quarter of a mile away. When he could hear Clem no longer, he went around the barn to meet Arch.

Arch came out of the house carrying his doublebarreled shotgun and the lantern he had picked up in the house. His pockets were bulging with shells.

"Where is that damn nigger, Lonnie?" Arch asked him. "Where'd he go to?"

Lonnie opened his mouth, but no words came out.

"You know which way he went, don't you?"

Lonnie again tried to say something, but there were no sounds. He jumped when he found himself nodding his head to Arch.

"Mr. Arch, I--"

"That's all right, then," Arch said. "That's all I need to know now. Dudley Smith and Tom Hawkins and Frank and Dave Howard and the rest will be here in a minute, and you can stay right here so you can show us where he's hiding out."

Frantically Lonnie tried to say something. Then he reached for Arch's sleeve to stop him, but Arch had gone.

Arch ran around the house to the front yard. Soon a car came racing down the road, its headlights lighting up the whole place, hog pen and all. Lonnie knew it was probably Dudley Smith, because his was the first house in that direction, only half a mile away. While he was turning into the driveway, several other automobiles came into sight, both up the road and down it.

Lonnie trembled. He was afraid Arch was going to tell him to point out where Clem had gone to hide. Then he knew Arch would tell him. He had promised Clem he would not do that. But try as he might, he could not make himself believe that Arch Gunnard would do anything more than whip Clem.

Clem had not done anything that called for lynching. He had not raped a white woman, he had not shot at a white man; he had only talked back to Arch, with his hat on. But Arch was mad enough to do anything; he was mad enough at Clem not to stop at anything short of lynching.

The whole crowd of men was swarming around him before he realized it. And there was Arch clutching his arm and shouting into his face.

"Mr. Arch, I . . ."

Lonnie recognized every man in the feeble dawn. They were excited, and they looked like men on the last lap of an all-night foxhunting party. Their shotguns and pistols were held at their waist, ready for the kill.

"What's the matter with you, Lonnie?" Arch said, shouting into his ear. "Wake up and say where Clem Henry went to hide out. We're ready to go get him."

Lonnie remembered looking up and seeing Frank Howard dropping yellow twelve-gauge shells into the breech of his gun. Frank bent forward so he could hear Lonnie tell Arch where Clem was hiding.

"You aint going to kill Clem this time, are you, Mr. Arch?" Lonnie asked.

"Kill him?" Dudley Smith repeated. "What do you reckon I've been waiting all this time for if it wasn't for a chance to get Clem. That nigger has had it coming to him ever since he came to this county. He's a bad nigger, and it's coming to him."

"It wasn't exactly Clem's fault," Lonnie said. "If Pa hadn't come up here and fell in the hog pen, Clem wouldn't have had a thing to do with it. He was helping me, that's all."

"Shut up, Lonnie," somebody shouted at him. "You're so excited you don't know what you're saying. You're taking up for a nigger when you talk like that."

People were crowding around him so tightly he felt as if he were being squeezed to death. He had to get some air, get his breath, get out of the crowd.

"That's right," Lonnie said.

He heard himself speak, but he did not know what he was saying.

"But Clem helped me find Pa when he got lost looking around for something to eat."

"Shut up, Lonnie," somebody said again. "You damn fool, shut up!"

Arch grabbed his shoulder and shook him until his teeth rattled. Then Lonnie realized what he had been saying.

"Now, look here, Lonnie," Arch shouted. "You must be out of your head, because you know good and well you wouldn't talk like a nigger-lover in your right mind."

"That's right," Lonnie said, trembling all over. "I sure wouldn't want to talk like that."

He could still feel the grip on his shoulder where Arch's strong fingers had hurt him.

"Did Clem go to the swamp, Lonnie?" Dudley Smith said. "Is that right, Lonnie?"

Lonnie tried to shake his head; he tried to nod his head. Then Arch's fingers squeezed his thin neck. Lonnie looked at the men wild-eyed.

"Where's Clem hiding, Lonnie?" Arch demanded, squeezing.

Lonnie went three or four steps towards the barn. When he stopped, the men behind him pushed forward again. He found himself being rushed behind the barn and beyond it.

"All right, Lonnie," Arch said. "Now which way?"

Lonnie pointed towards the patch of woods where the creek was. The swamp was in the other direction.

"He said he was going to hide out in that little patch of woods along the creek over there, Mr. Arch," Lonnie said. "I reckon he's over there now."

Lonnie felt himself being swept forward, and he stumbled over the rough ground trying to keep from being knocked down and trampled upon. Nobody was talking, and everyone seemed to be walking on tiptoes. The gray light of early dawn was increasing enough both to hide them and to show the way ahead.

Just before they reached the fringe of the woods, the men separated, and Lonnie found himself a part of the circle that was closing in on Clem.

Lonnie was alone, and there was nobody to stop him, but he was unable to move forward or backward. It began to be clear to him what he had done.

Clem was probably up a tree somewhere in the woods ahead, but by that time he had been surrounded on all sides. If he should attempt to break and run, he would be shot down like a rabbit.

Lonnie sat down on a log and tried to think what to do. The sun would be up in a few more minutes, and as soon as it came up, the men would close in on the creek and Clem. He would have no chance at all among all those shotguns and pistols.

Once or twice he saw the flare of a match through the underbrush where some of the men were lying in wait. A whiff of cigarette smoke struck his nostrils, and he found himself wondering if Clem could smell it wherever he was in the woods.

There was still no sound anywhere around him, and he knew that Arch Gunnard and the rest of the men were waiting for the sun, which would in a few minutes come up behind him in the east.

It was light enough by that time to see plainly the rough ground and the tangled underbrush and the curling bark on the pine trees.

The men had already begun to creep forward, guns raised as if stalking a deer. The woods were not large, and the circle of men would be able to cover it in a few minutes at the rate they were going forward. There was still a chance that Clem had slipped through the circle before dawn broke, but Lonnie felt that he was still there. He began to feel then that Clem was there because he himself had placed him there for the men to find more easily.

Lonnie found himself moving forward, drawn into the narrowing circle. Presently he could see the men all around him in dim outline. Their eyes were searching the heavy green pine tops as they went forward from tree to tree.

"Oh, Pa!" he said in a hoarse whisper. "Oh, Pa!"

He went forward a few steps, looking into the bushes and up into the tree tops. When he saw the other men again, he realized that it was not Mark Newsome being sought. He did not know what had made him forget like that.

The creeping forward began to work into the movement of Lonnie's body. He found himself springing forward on his toes, and his body was leaning in that direction. It was like creeping up on a rabbit when you did not have a gun to hunt with.

He forgot again what he was doing there. The springing motion in his legs seemed to be growing stronger with each step. He bent forward so far he could almost touch the ground with his fingertips. He could not stop now. He was keeping up with the circle of men.

The fifteen men were drawing closer and closer together. The dawn had broken enough to show the time on the face of a watch. The sun was beginning to color the sky above.

Lonnie was far in advance of anyone else by then. He could not hold himself back. The strength in his legs was more than he could hold in check.

He had for so long been unable to buy shells for his gun that he had forgotten how much he liked to hunt.

The sound of the men's steady creeping had become a rhythm in his ears.

"Here's the bastard!" somebody shouted, and there was a concerted crashing through the dry underbrush. Lonnie dashed forward, reaching the tree almost as quickly as anyone else.

He could see everybody with guns raised, and far into the sky above the sharply outlined face of Clem Henry gleamed in the rising sun. His body was hugging the slender top of the pine.

Lonnie did not know who was the first to fire, but the rest of the men did not hesitate. There was a deafening roar as the shotguns and revolvers flared and smoked around the trunk of the tree.

He closed his eyes; he was afraid to look again at the face above. The firing continued without break. Clem hugged the tree with all his might, and then, with the far-away sound of splintering wood, the top of the tree and Clem came crashing through the lower limbs to the ground. The body, sprawling and torn, landed on the ground with a thud that stopped Lonnie's heart for a moment.

He turned, clutching for the support of a tree, as the firing began once more. The crumpled body was tossed time after time, like a sackful of kittens being killed with an automatic shotgun, as charges of lead were fired into it from all sides. A cloud of dust rose from the ground and drifted overhead with the choking odor of burned powder.

Lonnie did not remember how long the shooting lasted. He found himself running from tree to tree, clutching at the rough pine bark, stumbling wildly towards the cleared ground. The sky had turned from gray to red when he emerged in the open, and as he ran, falling over the hard clods in the plowed field, he tried to keep his eyes on the house ahead.

Once he fell and found it almost impossible to rise again to his feet. He struggled to his knees, facing the round red sun. The warmth gave him the strength to rise to his feet, and he muttered unintelligibly to himself. He tried to say things he had never thought to say before.

When he got home, Hatty was waiting for him in the yard. She had heard the shots in the woods, and she had seen him stumbling over the hard clods in the field, and she had seen him kneeling there looking straight into the face of the sun. Hatty was trembling as she ran to Lonnie to find out what the matter was.

Once in his own yard, Lonnie turned and looked for a second over his shoulder. He saw the men climbing over the fence at Arch Gunnard's. Arch's wife was standing on the back porch, and she was speaking to them.

"Where's your pa, Lonnie? " Hatty said. "And what in the world was all that shooting in the woods for?" Lonnie stumbled forward until he had reached the front porch. He fell upon the steps.

"Lonnie, Lonnie!" Hattie was saying. "Wake up and tell me what in the world is the matter. I've never seen the like of all that's going on."

"Nothing," Lonnie said. "Nothing."

"Well, if there's nothing the matter, can't you go up to the big house and ask for a little piece of streak-of-lean? We aint got a thing to cook for breakfast. Your pa's going to be hungrier than ever after being up walking around all night."

"What?" Lonnie said, his voice rising to a shout as he jumped to his feet.

"Why, I only said go up to the big house and get a little piece of streak-of-lean, Lonnie. That's all I said."

He grabbed his wife about the shoulders.

"Meat?" he yelled, shaking her roughly.

"Yes," she said, pulling away from him in surprise. "Couldn't you go ask Arch Gunnard for a little bit of streak-of-lean?"

Lonnie slumped down again on the steps, his hands falling between his outspread legs and his chin falling on his chest.

"No," he said almost inaudibly. "No. I aint hungry."

The Art Of Fiction No. 62 | Interview with Erskine Caldwell

from The Paris Review #7

Wearing the black socks by which he had said we would recognize him, Erskine Caldwell called for us at a motel in Scottsdale, Arizona. A large-boned six-footer who, in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, once played professional football, Caldwell’s hair, which in earlier times earned him the nickname “Red,” is now predominantly white; his eyes are an arresting pale blue. On the drive to his Spanish-style, single-story home at the foot of a desert mountain, he remarked precisely each traffic light, turn, and landmark so we could get out there on our own.

On the first afternoon we met with Mr. Caldwell in his red carpeted study for exactly two hours. “I believe in rules,” he declared, “and you said you wanted to go for two hours.” The most prominent feature of Caldwell’s study is his large wooden writing table, faced away from the window, and its view of the backyard pool. Under the table, just a dunk shot away from the portable typewriter, rests a washtub-sized wooden wastebasket. An exercise bicycle, which Erskine says belongs to his wife Virginia, and she says belongs to him, occupies a corner of the room. Above it the wall is lined with Hogarth prints, purchased in London “when you could still buy them pretty cheap.” In a bookcase along the opposite wall is a well-stocked library of dictionaries (he prefers the “old” Webster’s Collegiate for its etymologies) and books on the English language. We did not notice that the bookshelves contained anything written by him.

With more than eighty million books sold to readers in nearly forty different languages, Erskine Caldwell is one of the most widely read literary figures of the twentieth century. His novel God’s Little Acre has alone sold over fourteen million copies. His books have been made into three movies and three plays; the stage adaptation of Tobacco Road made American theater history when it ran for seven and a half years on Broadway. A versatile and prolific writer, Caldwell

is the author of almost sixty books, including novels, short-story collections, autobiographical volumes, interpretive travel books, children’s books, and photo-essay volumes(such as the recently reissued You Have Seen Their Faces) done in collaboration with the photographer Margaret Bourke-White. In addition to Tobacco Road (1932) and God’s Little Acre(1933), Caldwell’s most celebrated novels are Journeyman (1935),Trouble in July (1940), and Tragic Ground (1944), all of which portray an impoverished, early-century, rural South that is both homeland and wasteland for its troubled and sometimes grotesque inhabitants. In a different genre and a different vein, Georgia Boy(1943), his genial short-story cycle about a small-town family enlivened by the antics of a quixotic father, is in many ways his best book and perhaps an American masterpiece. Caldwell’s latest books are a reissuing of his seventy-five story collection, Jackpot, in a Franklin Library limited edition (1980), and the autobiographical “A Year of Living,” now in progress.

Erskine Caldwell was born in Coweta County, Georgia, in either 1902 or 1903; there is no accurate record of his birth. He spent his early years living with his parents in a household that moved frequently among the Southern states. On various occasion she attended Erskine College, the University of Virginia, and the University of Pennsylvania, but did not earn a college degree. Following brief stints at a variety of jobs and a term as a reporter for the Atlanta Journal, he moved in 1926 to an old farmhouse in Mount Vernon, Maine; there during the next seven years he served his literary apprenticeship. A thirteen-year marriage to Helen Lannigan ended in 1938. From 1939 to 1942 he was married to Margaret Bourke-White, and from 1942 to 1956 to June Johnson. He is the father of four children, from his first and third marriages. Since 1957 he has been married to his present wife, Virginia Moffett Caldwell, an accomplished artist who has illustrated several of his books.

The first interview session began rather stiffly. Caldwell’s manner was formal as he addressed our questions carefully, in a firm voice still slightly tinged by a Southern accent. He speaks slowly and deliberately, pausing to formulate his replies and select the precise word he desires. His language, in general, is exact without sounding purposely elevated; and he uses an occasional slang term such as chap or punk as effective seasoning. Seated behind his writing desk, ever now and then he toyed with the typewriter carriage as we talked.


INTERVIEWER

Mr. Caldwell, what first interested you in becoming a writer?


Caldwell

Well, I was not a writer to begin with; I was a listener. In those early decades of the century, reading and writing were not common experiences. Oral storytelling was the basis of fiction. You learned by listening around the store, around the gin, the icehouse, the wood yard, or wherever people congregated and had nothing to do. You would listen for the extraordinary, the unusual; the people knew how to tell stories orally in such a way that they could make the smallest incident, the most far-fetched idea, into something extraordinarily interesting. It could be just a rooster crowing at a certain time of night or morning. It’s a mysterious thing. Many Southern writers must have learned the art of storytelling from listening to oral tales. I did. It gave me the knowledge that the simplest incident can make a story.


INTERVIEWER

How do you go about transforming such a simple incident into a story?


Caldwell

You get a kind of fever, I suppose, mentally and emotionally, that lifts you up and carries you away. You have to sustain this energy you’ve gotten to write your story. By the time you’ve finished, all your energy, your passion, is spent. You’ve been drained of everything.



INTERVIEWER

Is this passion something that comes in a flash?

Caldwell

No. Things that come in a flash you have to hold suspect. If you rely upon a dream, you’re going to be fooled. In the course of writing your story, you have to follow in sequence what your thoughts are.



INTERVIEWER

But your thoughts have to start somewhere.


Caldwell

Well, you have an idea to start with, otherwise you wouldn’t sit down at your typewriter. Whatever this idea is, that’s the solid thing you want to work with. You can’t wait for inspiration because it may never come.


INTERVIEWER

Where do you get that first idea?


Caldwell

You see a school bus going along out there and you wonder where it’s heading. Then you imagine a school, and a teacher. Well, who is this teacher? What is she like? Does she lead an interesting life? Then you recall some of the teachers that you had in the past. So it keeps on going and going.


INTERVIEWER

You mention recalling teachers you had known. Would this experience be important?


Caldwell

Yes. Experience combined with imagination. You have to use your imagination to invent something better than life because life itself is dull and prosaic.


INTERVIEWER

Would this inventing give you your plot?


Caldwell

No. I’m not interested in plots. I’m interested only in the characterization of people and what they do. I understand you can buy a pamphlet called The Seven Basic Plots of Fiction. A plot is applicable to what’s done in a mystery story, where the author knows in the beginning how it’s going to end. I never know how anything is going to end. All I ever know is the first line, the first sentence, the first page. The work terminates itself with dictation from me. Signs and portents indicate in some manner that a conclusion is just around the corner.


INTERVIEWER

Would this be true of your short stories as well as your novels?


Caldwell

Both are just a series of events and a cast of people that grow by themselves. I don’t manufacture tapestries. I let the people say or do what’s going to happen next.


INTERVIEWER

Then your characters control you?


Caldwell

Completely. These are all entirely new people and that means they’re unpredictable. You see, just like a child has to start from infancy to become a man, the character has to develop. You have a vision of some sort, maybe an insight into his appearance, but if you’re true to what you’re doing, he’s telling you what his action’s going to be and why he did it. If you let a person grow like that, little by little, you will have a character that is believable and maybe memorable to the reader.


INTERVIEWER

But you must have some influence over your characters.


Caldwell

I have no influence over them. I’m only an observer, recording. The story is always being told by the characters themselves. In fact, I’m often critical, or maybe ashamed, of what some of them say and do—their profanity or their immorality. But I have no control over it.


INTERVIEWER

But you do at least understand their motivations?


Caldwell

I’m not an oracle by any means. I’m often at a loss to explain the desires and the motivations of my people. You’ll have to find your explanation in them. They’re their own creations.


INTERVIEWER

Among your characters do you have any favorites?


Caldwell

No, because I don’t know that any of them are beloved in that sense. Some of them are reprehensible.


INTERVIEWER

Which are your favorites among your novels, short stories, and books of nonfiction?


Caldwell

Well, if you have to pin a person down, I would say that I like In Search of Bisco in nonfiction, Georgia Boy among short stories, and God’s Little Acre in the novel form. Those three strike me as being acceptable.


INTERVIEWER

In God’s Little Acre, is Ty Ty Walden’s persistence in mining for gold on his land his faith or his folly?


Caldwell

It’s a quirk of nature. There are people who get these tics. One person might get an idea to raise spotted pigs for no good reason at all. It will ruin his family life because the pigpens make a big smell right next to his house. His wife divorces him and so on. Now whether Ty Ty Walden got his tic through a dream or whether his father imbued him with it, somehow he got the idea that the land he owned had gold in it. In North Georgia, at a place called Dahlonega, they mined gold and minted gold coins. Well, that may have influenced him. Anyway, he was imbued with the idea that he had gold deposits and that all he had to do was dig until he could find them. Nothing would stop him.


INTERVIEWER

Do Ty Ty’s manipulations of God’s Little Acre itself indicate his hypocrisy?


Caldwell

I think you would have to blame the author for that; I wouldn’t blame Ty Ty. That was a literary movement to give variety, to give change, to have something happen in this story.


INTERVIEWER

Would you admit to there being symbolism in your books?


Caldwell

No, not a bit. I wouldn’t know how to inject it, and I would probably abhor it if I found it. I think the whole object in the search for symbolism in English and creative-writing courses is just to instigate a thought process in the students. The thinking is what really counts in the end, I guess; even an average student can find symbolism because you can’t prove or disprove it.


INTERVIEWER

Well, in your short story “The Growing Season,” if Fiddler isn’t a symbol, who or what is he? Will you tell us?


Caldwell

Nope.


INTERVIEWER

Does it matter?


Caldwell

It matters to the extent that it interests me to write that way. I know who Fiddler is, or at least I think I do. I can’t be positive because it can go two ways. I won’t even tell you what the two ways are; that would help give it away. But, no, I guess it doesn’t matter in the end. The speculation is what really counts.


INTERVIEWER

You’ve listed your favorites among your own books. What have you admired by other writers?


Caldwell

I haven’t read enough to know.


INTERVIEWER

Do you expect us to believe that?


Caldwell

I don’t make a pretense of that at all. Oh, I used to read the Sears and Roebuck catalog, every year when it came out. But I learned early in life that you can be a reader or a writer. I decided to be a writer.


INTERVIEWER

So you weren’t influenced by any other writers?


Caldwell

Influence is a very tenuous matter. I try to avoid it in every respect. I don’t want to be influenced by anybody. If I were being influenced by Shakespeare or Poe, let’s say, I would be second-rate at it. An imitation is always going to produce something not as good as the original. The original, to me, is the only thing that counts.


INTERVIEWER

How do you feel about your many imitators over the years, such as those satirized by James Thurber in “Bateman Comes Home”?


Caldwell

Well, satire is a very legitimate field. I think you should accept satirization easily, without being affronted by it. But imitation seems to me to be a very low-down form of writing. Hemingway had a great influence on fiction, and while in general that was all to the good, he also had hundreds of outright imitators; I doubt that any of them could do what he did as well as he could.


INTERVIEWER

Like Hemingway, you also worked on a newspaper early in your career. Did this experience help teach you to write?


Caldwell

Yes. It was really good training because it compelled me to write something every day whether I felt like it or not. So in that way even writing obituaries helps fiction writing.


INTERVIEWER

Was it working at a newspaper that got you in the habit of composing at the typewriter?


Caldwell

No. You might think so, but it didn’t happen that way. My father had one of those great big old-fashioned Underwoods, and the first thing I ever wrote was on that typewriter. Since then I’ve always had to see what I’m working on right here before me.


INTERVIEWER

Writing for a newspaper is a kind of on-the-job training. Did you also have any formal instruction in writing, perhaps at the various colleges you attended?


Caldwell

My most rewarding course at three different colleges was a graduate course in composition at the University of Virginia. It was conducted by a chap by the name of Atcheson Hench. I was only a freshman or a sophomore at the time, but I signed myself right in anyway. Life was too short to have to wait for four years. Henchlet us write whatever we wanted to—poetry, short stories, nonfiction—and then everybody else would comment upon it. Hench wouldn’t break my work down sentence by sentence or paragraph by paragraph. He left everything alone, which was very satisfactory to me. At the end of the course, he told me, “I had heard that you were not qualified for this course, but I watched you and I was satisfied. So, a lot of good luck to you.”


INTERVIEWER

Was this an early version of the creative-writing courses that are so popular in colleges today?


Caldwell

No. It was not called creative writing; it was called English composition. I fell out with the process when they invented the term “creative writing.” To me there is no such thing as creative writing. It’s either good writing, whatever the subject, or it’s not creative.


INTERVIEWER

Does this mean that you don’t distinguish between fiction and nonfiction?


Caldwell

That’s right. It’s not what you write, it’s how you write it. Whether you want to base a work on facts or on imagination does not really matter. You can be a good writer in either field, or both. The use of words is what makes writing, and in the end it’s how well you do it that’s going to count. Nonfiction can be just as appealing in a literary sense as a novel can be.


INTERVIEWER

You said that Hench’s was a composition course. Did you take any literature courses in college?


Caldwell

Well, I tried one English course and dropped out of it because the professor spent his whole time talking about Henry James or somebody of that caliber who was way beyond my comprehension. I also showed up for a graduate course called A Study of Wordsworth. I remember that I’d been there for about half a term, I guess, when the dean called me up to his office. He said, “I’ve received a question from the professor who’s conducting the Wordsworth course. He wants to know how in the world you got into his class.” I had told the professor that I didn’t like either Wordsworth or his poetry, so he complained to the dean. Anyway, I would say those were typical of my experiences with English courses in college. I think the problem was that my interest then had nothing to do with Wordsworth or Henry James but rather with the construction of a short story that had never been written before and that I wanted to write.


INTERVIEWER

Did any of your college studies other than English interest you or help shape your writing?


Caldwell

Yes. Sociology and economics. I studied them because they are the basis of life. But I did not have what you’d call an intellectual interest in them as subjects. They were just a point of departure.


INTERVIEWER

A point of departure?


Caldwell

I wanted to understand what life was, and why, so that I could write about it. But what I was writing in fiction was based much more on seeing life in action than on theory. For example, I really learned about economics by working in the basement of a ten-cent store in Wilkes-Barre and delivering milk in Washington at three o’clock every morning. And I learned about the hardships people were enduring by observing these things.


INTERVIEWER

Yet some readers argue that your books present a distorted, rather than a realistic, view of the South. For example, they say that you exaggerated the plight of the Jeeter Lester family in Tobacco Road.


Caldwell

Many Southern people are not sympathetic at all to the story or to the condition of these people. They had not observed the extreme poverty, or, if they had, they paid no attention to it. When it was said to exist, they denied it immediately. Well, that’s their privilege. But when I was living in Georgia with my parents, there were three or four different families from outside Wrens that would come in almost periodically, early in the morning. They would sit on our porch, begging for something to eat. From grandmothers to infants in arms, they would sit there all morning long, with somebody holding out his hand all of the time, moaning a little. So these things did exist. And I was always short tempered with people who said they did not.


INTERVIEWER

What about editors? Did they ask you to delete or change anything?


Caldwell

I’ve never encountered any situation where the publisher or editor has said, This has to come out. In fact, they never change anything I write. At the beginning of my career Max Perkins, who was an editor at Scribner’s, encouraged me to keep my attitude toward the integrity of writing. Since then I’ve never wanted anybody to tell me to change anything or to take anything out. And no one ever has.


INTERVIEWER

Do you consider yourself unusually fortunate in having been left alone?


Caldwell

Yes, but after what Perkins told me I thought I deserved it, so I was not abashed at all. I had no doubts that I could handle it. I’ve never doubted that I can write what I want to write and do it the way I want to do it.


INTERVIEWER

So no one advises you about your writing?


Caldwell

Well, I don’t pretend to be infallible. When Virginia began helping me as an editorial assistant, I had to browbeat her to find some fault, to find what might be wrong with this particular word or that sentence. Victor Weybright, my publisher at New American Library, had cautioned her not to change anything I had written. So I had to educate her to be critical of my work, and now she’s very strict with me.


INTERVIEWER

Do you need isolation in order to write?


Caldwell

I do like privacy. In the old days in New York you could rent a room very cheaply, and I wrote several books in rented rooms because I had no distractions whatsoever. I could put a typewriter the bed, sit opposite it in a chair, and write that way all day and night if I wanted to.


INTERVIEWER

Do you ever have to overcome inertia to get yourself writing in the morning?


Caldwell

No, I wouldn’t say so at all. Now, I might have the feeling coming in here that I don’t know what I’m going to do. I might be worried about that. But I’ll come in anyway and sit here until something happens. You see, it’s something I wanted to do to begin with and so I’ll still have that urge to see it through. I guess that talent is just a part of being a writer. You’ve got to have desire in order to make it all work.


INTERVIEWER

Have you ever had any long dry spells?


Caldwell

No. You can always write something. You write limericks. You write a love letter. You do something to get you in the habit of writing again, to bring back the desire.


INTERVIEWER

Do you do much revising as you go along?


Caldwell

I always have the biggest wastepaper basket in town, and it’s full at the end of the day. I write three or four lines, don’t like it, and in it goes. I found out early in life that there is no such thing as perfection or even close to perfection. Consequently, I discard constantly and try to do better with the next revision.


INTERVIEWER

What is a good day’s production for you then?


Caldwell

Oh, I might have two or three pages worth keeping at the end of the day. And that’s a lot, you know; three pages is a lot. I probably write forty or forty-five total to get those three I can keep. And it is not unusual to sit at a typewriter all day and end up with nothing. But if you get up, you know you’ll have nothing.


INTERVIEWER

Is there much revising left to do after you’ve completed a draft in this manner?


Caldwell

Normally, yes. Now with God’s Little Acre I dropped the sheets on the floor as I went and didn’t pick them up until I had finished. Then I put them together and that was the book. No revision. But usually when a book is finished, I rewrite the whole thing anywhere from six to a dozen times because I’m never satisfied.


INTERVIEWER

Do you add much in these subsequent drafts?


Caldwell

No. I might insert a description of a house or something, but you can overdo revisions. You can have too much fat and spoil what you should have lean. You have to know when to quit.


INTERVIEWER

Do you read your books after they’re published?


Caldwell

No. I open the books to see how the type looks. But once I’ve finished, I’m done.


INTERVIEWER

Which of your books was the most difficult to write?


Caldwell

When you’re young everything is easy, everything is smooth, everything you write is great. Every young writer feels that way. You don’t have that backward look at it, that self-criticism. You have no judgment. But as you grow older, every book becomes a little more difficult because you’re more critical of what you’re doing. You reach the point where you know something is wrong but you’re incapable of making it any better. So I would say the most recent two or three novels were probably the most difficult in that sense. The older writer is the one who has all the great trouble.


INTERVIEWER

Do you think your writing has changed over the years?


Caldwell

Yes. Your attitudes and your style do change, in a progressive way, as you grow older. Whether there’s improvement or not, at least there is change. Otherwise you’d be writing the same all the way through your career. You’d be writing Hardy Boys books or something. But when each work is a separate entity, there will be flux and change as you go.


INTERVIEWER

As you look back upon your career, do you see it in terms of discernible stages?


Caldwell

Well, I suppose so. The first stage, of course, was learning how to write, which took eight or ten years during the twenties. Then after that was a period when I was able to make money by writing in a subsidiary way, in Hollywood and so forth. My most productive period was probably from 1950 to 1975. During that time I had the desire, the opportunity, and the material so I did not let up. From 1975 until the present has been my least productive period. You might say I’ve been recovering from the excesses of life. Now I’m back to normal, I hope.


INTERVIEWER

Out of this long career, you say you spent almost the first decade learning how to write. Were you also publishing during this period?


Caldwell

The only way you can learn how to write is by writing; but, yes, when you’ve written something, you do want to get it published. When I started writing, the little magazines would publish some of what I wrote, and that gave me the impetus to keep on writing. They paid no money, but because I was supporting myself in Maine, raising my own food, I was willing to stay with it for years and years if necessary until something happened. My first short story was published in the little magazine transition in Paris.


INTERVIEWER

We’ve read that you devoted a year of your apprenticeship in Maine to writing poetry.


Caldwell

I think every writer has to go through the phase of writing poetry. That’s almost mandatory. The lucky people, in my opinion, are those who overcome it and start writing fiction instead.


INTERVIEWER

You gave it up entirely then?


Caldwell

Oh, sure, I learned my lesson. What gave me the courage to forget about poetry was a chap by the name of Louis Untermeyer. I had such admiration for him that I sent him some of my poems. He wrote to me and said that every young man is entitled to write poetry, but the sooner he gives it up, the better he’s going to be as a man. So I took his advice.


INTERVIEWER

He cured you?


Caldwell

Yes. And many years later when Untermeyer edited some children’s books, he asked me to submit a book for his series. “I know you’re out of poetry now,” he said, “so perhaps you can write a good child’s story.”


INTERVIEWER

And did you write one for him?


Caldwell

I did. The Deer at our House.


INTERVIEWER

Did you ever publish any of your poetry, either before or after Untermeyer gave you his advice?


Caldwell

No, but someone else once tried to. Just before Bourke-White died, a researcher visited her at the house we used to have in Darien, Connecticut. The two of them found some of my poetry stashed away under a window seat. This researcher threatened to publish it without my permission, but I told him he was going to get sued and arrested and maybe shot. Anyway, he’s quieted down now and hasn’t done anything about it.


INTERVIEWER

Besides poetry, your apprentice period produced your first extended fiction, The Bastard and Poor Fool. How do you now regard these early novelettes?


Caldwell

As experimental, preliminary, amateurish, but I think necessary to make the transition from a brief short story to a novel. They were basically imaginary—an attempt to find out how to present imaginative ideas realistically. I am much in favor of what I did, but I would not do it now. You have to go through that stage just as much as you have to go through the poetry stage and get rid of it.


INTERVIEWER

An early apprenticeship work that is rather poetic is The Sacrilege of Alan Kent. How does it strike you today?


Caldwell

It too was experimental, a little bit self-conscious maybe. It served its purpose at the time, but it was not traditional enough. It was not in the great tradition of fiction.


INTERVIEWER

A recent French-English edition of The Sacrilege of Alan Kent, published by Galerie Maeght, was lavishly illustrated by Alexander Calder. How did this collaborative effort come about?


Caldwell

Well, Marcel Duhamel, who was my translator for many years, got together with Virginia in Paris one night and they decided to get this book done in an illustrated limited edition. Duhamel said, “Picasso will do it!” You see, Picasso was his neighbor at Antibes and he knew him very well. When I was visiting Duhamel, I met Picasso down on the beach one night and went to his house. We did not have a common language and about all we could do was smile, nod, and improvise gestures. During the hour, we had several drinks and passed comments via Marcel’s interpretations. Picasso’s parting handshake was warm and intensely firm and clinging. Anyway, Picasso put the book on his schedule but died before he got to it. Duhamel did not get discouraged, though. He just said, “Sandy Calder can do it just as well as Picasso or better. I’ll get him!” And he did.


INTERVIEWER

You mentioned a period after your apprenticeship in which you made money, in a subsidiary way, from your writing. Would you explain what you meant by this?


Caldwell

I was in a high salary bracket in Hollywood off and on, and I also had an interest in the Broadway production of Tobacco Road, which ran for seven or eight years.


INTERVIEWER

What did you think of Jack Kirkland’s dramatization of Tobacco Road?


Caldwell

I would say that Kirkland’s version is true and authentic for dramatic purposes. By that I mean he had to manipulate the story to create dramatic highlights for the stage. I had great admiration for Henry Hull, the actor who first played Jeeter Lester, because he played the part straight. But I objected to the actors after Hull who portrayed Lester, both on Broadway and in the touring companies, because they played principally to get laughs. Now Kirkland didn’t like this either, but the producer was happy with the big box office and his authority was almost final.


INTERVIEWER

What about the movie version of Tobacco Road? Did you like it?


Caldwell

Not particularly, no. It had good actors, good actresses, a good screenwriter, and John Ford directing. It had everything in its favor. But then Darryl Zanuck came along and wanted a happy ending. So the characters go off to the poorhouse singing a folksong.


INTERVIEWER

Did Zanuck’s interference surprise you?


Caldwell

Not really. Movies were made pretty much under a studio formula. My agent told me that the movie of my novel Claudelle Inglish was so poor that I shouldn’t even bother to see it. So I didn’t.


INTERVIEWER

What about the film of God’s Little Acre? Were you any more satisfied with it?


Caldwell

Yes, because it was done independently, without any studio control. The studios were very union bound and might have toned down the part about the mill strike. Of course, I didn’t have much to do with it except as an advisor here and there, but the freedom of an independent production was very interesting to me. At least nobody ordered a happy ending put on it.


INTERVIEWER

You say you advised the producers of God’s Little Acre. Did you ever take a more direct part in translating your books into movies or plays?


Caldwell

Well, Journeyman had a disastrous career for several weeks on Broadway. Then I came along and tried to doctor the script. I didn’t succeed, though, and the whole thing eventually flopped. I never felt qualified as a dramatist because I had no training.


INTERVIEWER

So you never attempted to write a complete play?


Caldwell

Oh, one of my misfortunes in life was that I wrote a musical for Broadway. About Mexican politicians. The principal actor, or singer, was to portray the president of Mexico. But this touched on a lot of toes in the State Department. Somebody there thought it might cause a diplomatic rub if we showed the president of Mexico chasing girls around the adobe walls and singing. So it never got produced. I don’t think it was a very good musical anyway.


INTERVIEWER

Did you give it a title?


Caldwell

Sure, sure. “The Strong Man of Maxcatan.” The script is in the Dartmouth College Archives, so maybe someday it’ll get resurrected.


INTERVIEWER

Were any of the movies you worked on in Hollywood particularly interesting to you?


Caldwell

Not especially. My early writing there was for a series of shorts called Crime Does Not Pay. Then I worked on Mission to Moscow, which was a propaganda film. The studio wanted me for it because of my experiences in the Soviet Union during the war. But I did not like the propaganda angle. After some preliminary writing on it, I asked to be relieved.


INTERVIEWER

You said earlier that you need privacy when you write. Did working in a studio environment present any difficulties for you?


Caldwell

Yes. For one thing, in the old days in Hollywood you couldn’t be a writer unless you could dictate your story to a secretary, and I never could dictate to anybody. So I had to go home at night to write where nobody could see me. I used to write in secret.


INTERVIEWER

Did your Hollywood experiences help your fiction writing?


Caldwell

Not a bit. It was just a waste of time. It’s impossible to write your fiction and work in the studio at the same time. I wasn’t doing anything except hackwork for five or six years. But, I needed the money and the longer you stay, the more they pay you.


INTERVIEWER

How did you finally get out?


Caldwell

Saved enough so I could quit. In 1950 I quit cold and I haven’t been back since.


INTERVIEWER

Were you happy to get back to your fiction after the Hollywood years?


Caldwell

Very happy. After that deadly period I spent the next twenty-five years trying to catch up, to write what I had not had the opportunity to do. From 1950 to 1975 I probably wrote more stories, more novels, and more books of nonfiction than in any other period.


INTERVIEWER

Which did you prefer, writing short stories or writing novels?


Caldwell

To me short-story writing is the essence of writing. I think a writer should always write short stories before he tries to write a novel. You have better control because a short story is concentrated into a small area. You also have better range because a short story can be anywhere from one to fifty pages long. You can mold it much better than you can a novel. A novel is a great, expansive thing. You can’t make a change at one point without affecting something another fifty pages away.


INTERVIEWER

But your short-story production seems to have tapered off during the fifties.


Caldwell

Well, you’re always going to like short-story writing better than novel writing. But once you accomplish the short-story form, you’re really stuck with it. So I wrote a hundred and fifty and quit. Of course, a hundred and fifty were probably only half of what got written. The other half I threw into the wastebasket.


INTERVIEWER

We have read that two of your novels, “The Bogus Ones” and “Autumn Hill,” were never published. Do you have many other unpublished manuscripts?


Caldwell

No, they go in the wastebasket. The two novels you mention are the only ones I can recall that I completed but never published. And they were not good enough to be published.


INTERVIEWER

You said that your most productive period ended in 1975. What caused this?


Caldwell

The past five years have been sort of a fallow period because I did too much traveling, going to Europe twice a year and so forth. And I also took two years out to have cancer operations on my lungs. I almost killed myself smoking cigarettes.


INTERVIEWER

I notice you haven’t smoked during this interview. Did you quit completely?


Caldwell

Oh, yes. About six years ago. My doctor at the Mayo Clinic told me I had to if I wanted to keep on living. So I crossed the street to a bar and ordered a drink. I had two cigarettes left in a pack, and I put both in my mouth and smoked them at the same time. I haven’t had one since.


INTERVIEWER

Mrs. Caldwell said that you came close to doing a book on President Carter.


Caldwell

What happened there was that just after Jimmy Carter was elected president, the people at Dodd, Mead wanted me to write a book about him and his hometown. It was supposed to be illustrated with photographs. But there was no great money involved—everything was more or less on “spec”—so I doubt that we could have gotten the kind of photography we wanted. The idea was interesting, I thought, but eventually it just evaporated.


INTERVIEWER

Do you think the Carter family’s Southern folksiness is authentic?


Caldwell

I think so. That ménage is fairly typical of others that I have known, particularly in Georgia. My feeling about them is that they’re just average, down-home Southern people in many ways. They’re very close-knit, very friendly, and very outspoken. I’ve known many men like Billy Carter who drink beer all day and ride around in a pickup truck. In fact, I’d probably rather do a book on Billy than on Jimmy. He’s more of a character.


INTERVIEWER

Your new book, A Year of Living, has so far taken you a year and a half to write. Would you describe your daily writing schedule for that book?


Caldwell

Well, for this particular book I got into the habit of working twice a day. I am here at the typewriter at six o’clock with the lights on every morning and work until ten or eleven o’clock. Then from four until seven I’ll be back at it again.


INTERVIEWER

Did other books have different schedules?


Caldwell

Yes, I used to have all kinds of schedules. Years ago, in the state of Maine, I chose to write my book on even days and work outside on odd days. When winter came, I shoveled snow and slept a little during the day, then stayed up all night to write. Another early method I used was to take a trip to write a short story. I’d ride a bus, from Boston to Cleveland maybe, and get off at night once in a while to write. I’d do a story that way in about a week’s time. Then, for a while, I took the night boats between Boston and New York. The Fall River line, the New Bedford line, the Cape Cod line, all going to New York at night. The rhythm of the water might have helped my sentence structure a little; at least I thought it did. Those were all early methods, or schedules, of writing. Everything since then has been a little bit different.


INTERVIEWER

Do you ever have several different writing projects going at the same time?


Caldwell

No, only one thing at a time. And I stick with it for six months, eight months, nine months, whatever it takes.


INTERVIEWER

You have been an active writer now for almost sixty years. What motivates your continuous devotion?


Caldwell

Well, some people are addicted to singing to themselves. It’s the same way with writing, I suppose. I write because it makes me feel good.


INTERVIEWER

Do you worry about what the critics will say about a book?


Caldwell

Not at all. A critic is an egotist. I am the judge, he says. He will wreck an author’s work by tearing it apart and never getting it back together again. Of course, there are some good people in that field, but I just don’t have much faith in what I call a critic. A critic is a superfluous commodity.


INTERVIEWER

Is there any particular audience whose attention you do appreciate?


Caldwell

Well, in that sense you might say I write for the ordinary man in the street, the golden mean. If I’m appealing to that sort of person, I’m happy. For example, a couple of weeks ago Virginia and I were at the annual ceremonial of the American Academy and Institute in New York. Of course, the American Academy and Institute is a collection of very high-class intellects. Everybody’s a big brain. On this particular occasion I was talking to Malcolm Cowley, I think, when a waiter came up with a tray of hors d’oeuvres. He was just a young punk, maybe a student at NYU working as a waiter. Anyway, he said, “Take one . . . Now shake hands with me. You’re the one person here I want to shake hands with.” So I shook hands with the guy and took another hors d’oeuvre.


INTERVIEWER

Why do you think your popularity as a writer has diminished until recently in this country but has remained steadfast abroad?


Caldwell

Fiction in America changes almost from one day to the next. We are still a very volatile civilization, whereas in an older country there is very little change except in a political sense. In America, fiction reflects current lifestyles, economic conditions, wars, lots of things. The interests of American readers change with the times. Especially here, writing has to be contemporary. But I don’t know that any writer anywhere should consider his work immortal.


INTERVIEWER

You don’t sound very concerned with achieving a lasting popularity.


Caldwell

I have never been interested in popularity because popularity doesn’t mean much. To be popular you have to be exploited.


INTERVIEWER

What kinds of books are publishers exploiting today?


Caldwell

Well, they’ve gone heavily into what they call the Big Book, something seven hundred to one thousand pages long. In recent years the American storyteller has been pretty well shunted aside by this blatant pressure to provide the best-seller. There is no imagination being applied anymore in a storytelling sense. And the bestseller itself is nothing more than a formula.


INTERVIEWER

Do you plan to write any more fiction?


Caldwell

I’ve reached the point where I’m too critical of fiction right now. I’m too abashed by the trashiness of a lot of current fiction to enter into it. The great compendium of knowledge that goes into a James Michener book, Centennial for example, does not interest me. At present I don’t see anything in between the trashy novel and the encyclopedic novel, so I’ll wait it out. I think the novel’s at a stage where something will surface between these two extremes. But what it will be, I don’t know.


INTERVIEWER

Could it be the journalistic novel, such as In Cold Blood and The Executioner’s Song?


Caldwell

In my opinion that will be a very short-lived pattern. I think it is an attempt to find what the next phase of the novel is going to be. Of course, the Capote book was the first of that kind; then Mailer’s came along. I’ve glanced at The Executioner’s Song and parts of it seem to me to be purely extraneous to the story. The excerpts from newspapers, for example, are just a compendium of a lot of clippings. They had nothing to do with Mailer’s writing at all. Well, to me that doesn’t have much of a future.


INTERVIEWER

Do you think storytelling itself will come back?


Caldwell

It will have to. It’s inevitable that storytelling will come back because storytelling is the whole basis of fiction. That’s where new ideas originate.


INTERVIEWER

Mark Twain was one of America’s greatest storytellers. In an interview a number of years ago you said you hadn’t read any of his work.


Caldwell

I haven’t yet. It’s something to look forward to. I’ve heard so much about him.


INTERVIEWER

You said once that you admired Sherwood Anderson’s short stories.


Caldwell

Yes. In those days there were plenty of novels in existence but very few good short stories. What interested me about Sherwood Anderson were his short stories. I liked the brevity. I liked the way he presented his people. His style was lean. It was not cluttered up with superfluous adjectives and unnecessary paragraphs.


INTERVIEWER

You have often been compared to Faulkner. How do you feel about that comparison?


Caldwell

I don’t know, because I don’t know anything about Faulkner’s writing. I read one of his books, As I Lay Dying, which I thought was a very fine exercise in writing. But I read it only to find out what he was doing, and I don’t know what he did before or since. I met Faulkner a couple of times, once in France and once in New York, but I was not well acquainted with him. The only subject of conversation with him that I can recall was the difficulty of talking to anyone in a foreign language when a person has the use of only his native language.


INTERVIEWER

Have there been any writers over the years with whom you have been well acquainted?


Caldwell

Oh no. I don’t mingle with other writers because it’s a bad class of people. My friendships have always been with the young ladies of life.


INTERVIEWER

What have you got against other writers?


Caldwell

They never talk about anything interesting, just about themselves and their work. The only writers I ever got along really well with were William Saroyan and a chap by the name of Pep West, Nathanael West. I knew him in New York and in Hollywood. These two were the only ones I had any great interest in knowing because they did not talk about their work all the time. They talked about cigars, anything.


INTERVIEWER

But surely you knew other writers?


Caldwell

Oh, I’ve known a few more or less casually. I knew Sherwood Anderson fairly well. Once when he was in Arizona he spent a week with me in Tucson. I also got to know Steinbeck pretty well, in Mexico and again in New York. Aside from those people, I got to know Theodore Dreiser slightly. He was another slave in Hollywood when I was there. In fact, we both had the same agent. Then Sinclair Lewis used to stop at my house in Connecticut on his way to the country sometimes. But I would not say I ever had any deep friendships with other writers.


INTERVIEWER

Writers traditionally are notorious for having difficulty sustaining marriages. Is divorce an occupational hazard?


Caldwell

Yes, and I’ll tell you why. Whoever is not the writer in the family always gets the short end of the stick. That’s because a writer has to be somewhat selfish. For example, I’m a retiring person in social life or in any other kind of life. I suppose you’d call me almost a recluse. I don’t take days off. I work on Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays. Well, a woman can resent that, and eventually something is going to give somewhere along the way. Of course, once in a while there is a very even-spirited person who can take all this, and that’s why some writers do stay married. But as a rule, no, they don’t.


INTERVIEWER

Have you enjoyed your fame and fortune?


Caldwell

Well, I’m happy to be able to live the kind of life that I’ve lived. But early in life I had a difficult time. Step by step I acquired marriages, and after each of the first three I was divided up. I lost three good houses—one in Maine, one in Connecticut, and one in Tucson. But I’m much smarter now. I put everything in Virginia’s name, so I can never lose it. The car, the house, everything’s in her name. So now I’m safe.


INTERVIEWER

Do you have any superstitions about writing?


Caldwell

I have a red rug in my room. Wherever I’ve lived in life, I’ve carried my red rug with me. I keep it in excellent shape. I have it vacuumed; I have it dry-cleaned. We are sitting on it now, in fact. Why is it here? We have a very good carpet underneath. But I’ve got a reason for wanting it here. It’s part of my life. Back in the early days I had to live on cold and splintery floors. There was a hardwood floor in Maine that was especially cold because the room I worked in was unheated. Now, an unheated room in a New England winter is sort of a difficult dungeon. Then, in South Carolina, I was confined to write for a while in a rented room with a linoleum floor. The linoleum was cracked and it bristled with splinters. Anytime I didn’t have my shoes on, I’d get a splinter in my foot. Well, as soon as I could afford to get a good rug, I bought my red one. And I decided then that I’d carry my red rug with me wherever I went.


INTERVIEWER

And your black socks? You said on the phone the other day that we would recognize you by them, and I notice you’ve worn black socks every day.


Caldwell

On a Sunday I wear white socks. Thick white athletic socks for the outdoors. You should see me on a Sunday sometime.


Wheatfield by Claude Monet

Return of the Prodigal Son by Rembrandt

The Fall of Icarus by Breugel

Still Life with Coffee Pot by Pissarro

The Birth of Venus by Botticelli

St. Paul's Basilica by Giovanni Paolo Pannini

Cypress Trees with Moon by Vincent Van Gogh

The Empire of Light by Rene Magritte

The Reader by Gerard

Jack-in-Pulpit Abstraction by Georgia O'Keeffe